Ultimate Reality

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Posts by Ultimate Reality

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  12

  Patrick McGoohan Dies aged 80

  by Caedes in

  1. social
  2. current

  http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/entertainment/7829267.stm.

  sad news, what a great actor.

  best known for the cult tv series the prisoner..

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  Ultimate Reality

  Sad indeed. He was more than an actor and made a valuable contribution to society.
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  41

  So I've agreed to a Bible Study, how will I get thru it without wanting to die?

  by lola28 in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  no joke.

  the sister who studied with me is older and she's been having a very hard time getting around out in service, i heard she was ill so i called her and this morning she came by my office and we started to talk, her kids have all moved away and she's lonely, going out in service is hard for her but she tries her best to get out there, she asked me if i would consider a study with her and i said yes.

  i miss her terribly, she's the closest thing i've had to a grandmother and i adore her, also i'd rather she be with me indoors instead of walking around house to house when her legs give her so much trouble.

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  Ultimate Reality

  What is so sad about this, is that the very community of JW's that she wants to bring you into is doing nothing for her -- nothing of practical value. Instead, she can only feel good about herself and ease her loneliness by spending time studying with you, and "counting her time".

  Where is the love in the spiritual paradise?
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  15

  True Religion vs. False Religion and James 1:27

  by Ultimate Reality in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  something that opened my eyes as i was re-examining "the truth" was the verse at james 1:27. in the new world translation the greek word in this verse, threskeia, is translated worship, which is fine except that it hides a more important meaning.

  this same word can be, and most often is translated religion.. for witnesses, the matter of being the "one true religion" is all important.

  pure and undefiled religion before god and the father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, to keep oneself unspotted from the world.. english revised version.

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  Ultimate Reality

  Quietly Leaving:

  I think the confusion here comes from the concept and word church or congregation. To understand these we have to look at this in the First Century context because religions have hijacked these words for their own justification.

  Simply put, the church or congregation are people. In this case, the Christian believers in their various locations.

  Obviously, true followers of Christ, individually and as a community would engage in the acts James mentions. They would also gather together and pool resources where needed, this would be normal of any people who have something important in common.

  My point is that true religion and true Christianity are really exercised personally, by our own actions. It is not a hierarchical religious institution or organization with 9 men determining religious law, claiming that have been chosen by God to lead us (or anything similar).
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  15

  True Religion vs. False Religion and James 1:27

  by Ultimate Reality in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  something that opened my eyes as i was re-examining "the truth" was the verse at james 1:27. in the new world translation the greek word in this verse, threskeia, is translated worship, which is fine except that it hides a more important meaning.

  this same word can be, and most often is translated religion.. for witnesses, the matter of being the "one true religion" is all important.

  pure and undefiled religion before god and the father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, to keep oneself unspotted from the world.. english revised version.

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  Ultimate Reality

  Something that opened my eyes as I was re-examining "the truth" was the verse at James 1:27. In the New World Translation the greek word in this verse, threskeia, is translated worship, which is fine except that it hides a more important meaning. This same word can be, and most often is translated religion.

  For Witnesses, the matter of being the "one true religion" is all important. You are taught that it is vital for survival to identify the true religion and attach yourself to it. But this concept of there being an organized institution that has been selected by God is, under the Christian system, fundamentally flawed. For we need not look externally, but internally.

  We see from James' statement below (from a variety of translations) that true religion is not institutional, it's personal. For the activities James mentions come from our own heart-felt desire to do good for others and to live according to bible principles -- scripturally, that is the "true religion".

  I have, with some success, been able to share this point with others to help them see beyond the concepts that so many of us have been indoctrinated with; perhaps it will help someone you know.

  JAMES 1:27...

  International Standard Version (©2008)
  A religion that is pure and stainless according to God the Father is this: to take care of orphans and widows who are suffering, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

  New American Standard Bible (©1995)
  Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

  GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
  Pure, unstained religion, according to God our Father, is to take care of orphans and widows when they suffer and to remain uncorrupted by this world.

  King James Bible
  Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

  American King James Version
  Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

  American Standard Version
  Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

  Bible in Basic English
  The religion which is holy and free from evil in the eyes of our God and Father is this: to take care of children who have no fathers and of widows who are in trouble, and to keep oneself untouched by the world.

  Douay-Rheims Bible
  Religion clean and undefiled before God and the Father, is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their tribulation: and to keep one's self unspotted from this world.

  Darby Bible Translation
  Pure and undefiled religion before God and the Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their affliction, to keep oneself unspotted from the world.

  English Revised Version
  Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

  Webster's Bible Translation
  Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

  Weymouth New Testament
  The religious service which is pure and stainless in the sight of our God and Father is to visit fatherless children and widowed women in their time of trouble, and to keep one's own self unspotted from the world.

  World English Bible
  Pure religion and undefiled before our God and Father is this: to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.

  Young's Literal Translation
  religion pure and undefiled with the God and Father is this, to look after orphans and widows in their tribulation -- unspotted to keep himself from the world.
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  22

  Some Apostles Still Alive Today?

  by sacolton in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  matthew 16:28.

  "i tell you with certainty, some people standing here will not experience death before they see the son of man coming in his kingdom.".

  mark 9:1. then he said to them, "i tell you with certainty, some people standing here will not experience death until they see the kingdom of god arrive with power.".

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  Ultimate Reality

  Thanks to The Sage.

  Indeed, regardless of a person's faith in God or the Bible, these 1st century prophecies were due to be fulfilled in the 1st century.

  For those that do believe in the bible, you will see that just as Christ promised, the events described in Matthew the 24th chapter were fulfilled. There is no future re-fulfillment of these events -- no secondary, larger fulfillment as the WTS describes it.

  The idea that these events are just on the horizon for us, in modern times, is a religious ploy. To make us fear the future and align ourselves with the "religious authority" that "watches" and "warns" us that the end is around the corner.

  The "end" came as promised for the Jewish system of things, the temple, and the Mosaic economy in 70CE.

  If you want to know what bible prophecies have yet to be fulfilled, look to Revelation 20:7 and beyond.

  Again, a person may or may not have faith in these things. Regardless, it is organized religion that is dependent on the mis-interpretation and incorrect timing of bible prophecies (including the incorrect dating of Revelation to 96CE). Such mis-interpretation allows the religious leaders to control the masses -- including the rank and file Witnesses.
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  7

  Timing Christ's Presence

  by Ultimate Reality in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  startfragment.

  obviously, this is an ongoing discussion.

  in a past post (which was so popular, there were 0 replies) i mentioned a book by james stewart russell: the parousia: the new testament doctrine of our lord's second coming, which was written in 1878. the book is a discussion of the new testament as it relates to the subject of the parousia or christ's presence.

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  Ultimate Reality

  Thank you for the positive comments.

  It is true that passages and the interpretation of certain words of the bible can be up for debate. Sometimes, there could be more than one possible meaning. However, the bible's basic message is clear when we do not try to twist more out of it than it really says. So much confusion and speculation result from the idea that the bible has double meanings; that prophecies will have a "secondary, larger fulfillment". But when we take the scriptures just for what they say and nothing more, things are far more clear. We just need to understand the point being made, to whom it was being made, and when. For example, J.S. Russell makes the following comment on 1 Thess:

  1 THESS. v. 23 -- ' Now may the God of peace himself sanctify you wholly, and may your spirit, and soul, and body, all together be preserved blameless at the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.' [8]

  If any shadow of a doubt still rested on the question whether St. Paul believed and taught the incidence of the Parousia in his own day, this passage would dispel it. No words can more clearly imply this belief than this prayer that the Thessalonian Christians might not die before the appearing of Christ. Death is the dissolution of the union between body, soul, and spirit, and the apostle's prayer is that spirit, soul, and body might 'all together' [oloklhron] be preserved in sanctity till the Lord's coming. This implies the continuance of their corporeal life until that event.
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  7

  Timing Christ's Presence

  by Ultimate Reality in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  startfragment.

  obviously, this is an ongoing discussion.

  in a past post (which was so popular, there were 0 replies) i mentioned a book by james stewart russell: the parousia: the new testament doctrine of our lord's second coming, which was written in 1878. the book is a discussion of the new testament as it relates to the subject of the parousia or christ's presence.

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  Ultimate Reality

  Obviously, this is an ongoing discussion. In a past post (which was so popular, there were 0 replies) I mentioned a book by James Stewart Russell: The Parousia: The New Testament Doctrine of Our Lord's Second Coming, which was written in 1878. The book is a discussion of the New Testament as it relates to the subject of the Parousia or Christ's Presence. While lengthy, it is also easy to read and covers the NT books in context -- unlike WT discussions.

  For those that have rejected the chronology of the Watchtower but have chosen to maintain their faith in God and the Bible, the book may answer many questions (or at least shed "new light") on "the great tribulation", "armageddon", and "Babylon the Great". For others, whether you believe in the bible or not, you will still find a well researched document that exposes many of the false biblical interpretations that have allowed religions to ensnare people through fear of impending doom.

  You will also find J.S. Russell's discussion far more interesting and compelling than the Society's Revelation-Climax book.

  When I realized that 1914 and all that is tied to it is a myth, my next question was "where are we in the stream of time?" I still do not have the answer to that question, but neither do I feel it important anymore because I am not in fear of any great tribulation.

  Basically, the The Parousia discusses how those of the first century were looking for Christ's return within that generation. That his return and judgement of Jerusalem in 70CE was fulfilled. It also views Revelation as having been written before 70CE (I strongly recommend reading about Irenaeus, whose ambiguous statements are used to date Revelation to 96CE). You will find the discussion on these matters logical, consistent, and never dogmatic.

  I post this because it has helped me, and I hope it can help others.

  Below I have posted just part of the Summary and Conclusion from the book The Parousia. It is my hope that others will read the entire book which can be found on Amazon.com or here: http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/christ_has_come/russell.html (I do not know what the Berean Bible Church is about -- I merely post this because they have a copy of Russell's book on their site).

  For those interested here is a partial quote from the final chapter of The Parousia:

  Summary and Conclusion

  We have now reached a point in our investigation where it is possible to take a complete and connected survey of the whole field which we have traversed, and to observe the unity and consistency of the prophetic system developed in the New Testament.

  1. We find that the Gospel dispensation does not come upon us as an independent and isolated scheme,—a new beginning in the divine government of the world,—but that it implies and assumes the relation of God to Israel in past ages. The whole philosophy of Jewish history is condensed into a single phrase, ‘the kingdom of God;’ and it is this kingdom which, first John the Baptist, as the herald of the coming king, and next the King Himself, the Lord Jesus Christ, proclaimed as being ‘at hand.’

  2. We find that John the Baptist adopts the warnings of Old Testament prophecy, especially of the last of the prophets, Malachi, and predicts that the coming of the kingdom would be the coming of wrath upon Israel. He declares that ‘the axe is already laid to the root of the tree;’ his cry is, ‘Flee from the coming wrath,’ plainly intimating that a time of judgment was fast approaching.

  3. Our Lord affirms the same speedy coming of judgment upon the land and people of Israel; and He further connects this judgment with His own coming in glory,—the Parousia. This event stands forth most prominently in the New Testament; to this every eye is directed, to this every inspired messenger points. It is represented as the nucleus and centre of a cluster of great events; the end of the age, or close of the Jewish economy; the destruction of the city and temple of Jerusalem; the judgment of the guilty nation; the resurrection of the dead; the reward of the faithful; the consummation of the kingdom of God. All these transactions are declared to be coincident with the Parousia.

  4. It is demonstrable by the express testimony of our Lord, the uniform and concurrent teaching of His apostles, and the universal expectation of the church of the apostolic age, that the Parousia and its accompanying events were represented as nigh at hand; and not only so, but as about to happen within the limits of a given period ; that is to say, in the time of the apostles and their contemporaries; so that many or most of them might expect to witness the great consummation. This is the main point of the whole question, and must be decided by the authority of the Scriptures themselves. While the proof ought to be rigorously demanded, and the evidence thoroughly sifted, it ought also to be dispassionately considered, without resorting to non natural interpretation, uncritical and unfair evasion, or violent wresting of the plain sense of words.

  5. Without going over the ground already traversed it may suffice here to appeal to three distinct and decisive declarations of our Lord respecting the time of His coming, each of them accompanied with a solemn affirmation:—

  (1) ‘Verily I say unto you, Ye shall not have gone over the cities of Israel, till the Son of man be come’ (Matt. 10:23).
  (2) ‘Verily I say unto you, there be some standing here, which shall not taste of death, till they see the Son of man coming in his kingdom’ (Matt. 16:28).
  (3) ‘Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled’ (Matt. 24:34).

  The plain grammatical meaning of these statements has been fully discussed in these pages. No violence can extort from them any other sense than the obvious and unambiguous one, viz. that our Lord’s second coming would take place within the limits of the existing generation.

  6. The doctrine of the apostles with regard to the coming of the Lord is in perfect harmony with this. Nothing can be more evident than that they all believed and taught the speedy return of the Lord. From the first speech of St. Peter on the day of Pentecost to the last utterance of St. John in the Apocalypse, this conviction is clearly and constantly expressed. To say that the apostles were themselves ignorant of the time of their Lord’s return, and therefore could have no belief on the subject,—could not teach what they did not know,—is to contradict their own express and reiterated assertions. True, they did not know, and did not teach, ‘that day and that hour;’ they did not say that He would come in a particular month of a particular year, but they assuredly did give the churches to understand that He was coming quickly; that they might soon expect to see Him; and they never ceased to exhort them to maintain the attitude of constant watchfulness and preparation.

  It is not necessary to do more than advert to some of the leading testimonies borne by the apostles to the speedy coming of the Lord:—

  (1) St. Paul gives great prominence in his epistles to this cherished hope of the Christian church.

  a. In the First Epistle to the Thessalonians he implies the possibility of the Lord’s coming in his and their lifetime,— ‘We which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord.’ He also prays that ‘their spirit, soul, and body may be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ.’
  b. In the Second Epistle to the Thessalonians (which is often erroneously understood to teach that the coming of Christ was not at hand, but which teaches precisely the contrary doctrine) he comforts the suffering believers with the promise that they would obtain rest from their present sufferings ‘when the Lord Jesus was revealed from heaven,’ etc. (2 Thess. 1:7).
  c. In the First Epistle to the Corinthians the apostle speaks of believers as ‘waiting for the coming of the Lord Jesus Christ.’ He warns them that ‘the time is short;’ that ‘the end of the age,’ or ‘ ends of the ages,’ are come upon them; that ‘the Lord is at hand.’
  d. In the Second Epistle to the Corinthians St. Paul expresses his confidence that though he might die before the coming of the Lord, yet God would raise him from the dead, and present him along with those who survived to that period.
  e. In the Epistle to the Romans St. Paul speaks of ‘the glory about to be revealed;’ of the whole creation waiting for the manifestation of the Son of God; of salvation being near, ‘nearer than when they first believed;‘ that ‘it is now high time to awake out of sleep;‘ that ‘the night is far spent, and the day at hand;’ that ‘God will bruise Satan under their feet shortly.’
  f. In the Epistles to the Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians the apostle speaks of ‘the day of Christ’ as the period of hope, perfection, and glory to which they were looking forward, and he declares emphatically, ‘The Lord is at hand.’
  g. In like manner, in the Epistles to Timothy and Titus the expectation of the Parousia is conspicuous. Timothy is exhorted to keep the commandment inviolate ‘until the appearing of our Lord Jesus Christ.’ ‘He is about to judge the living and the dead at his appearing, and his kingdom.’ Christians are exhorted to be looking ‘for that blessed hope, even the glorious appearing of the great God and our Saviour, Jesus Christ.’

  (2) St. James represents the coming of the Lord as just at hand. ‘The last days’ are come. Suffering Christians are exhorted to ‘be patient unto the coming of the Lord.’ They are assured that ‘it is drawing nigh;’ that the Judge standeth before the door.’

  (3) St. Peter, like St. Paul, gives great prominence to the Parousia and its related events.

  a. On the day of Pentecost he declared that those were ‘the last days’ predicted by the prophet Joel, introductory to ‘the great and terrible day of the Lord.’
  b. In his First Epistle he affirms that it was ‘the last time;’ that God was ‘ready to judge the living and the dead;’ ‘that the end of all things was at hand;’ that ‘the time had come when judgment was to begin at the house of God.’
  c. In his Second Epistle he exhorts Christians to be ‘looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God;’ and depicts the approaching dissolution of ‘heaven and earth.’

  (4) The Epistle to the Hebrews speaks of ‘the last days’ as now present; it is ‘the end of the age;’ the day is seen to be ‘approaching;’ ‘Yet a little, little while, and he that is coming will come, and will not tarry.’

  (5) St. John confirms and completes the testimony of his fellow-apostles; it is ‘the last time;’ ‘antichrist has come;’ ‘he is already in the world.’ Christians are exhorted so to live that they may not be ashamed before Christ at His coming.

  Finally, the Apocalypse is full of the Parousia: ‘Behold, he cometh with clouds;’ ‘The time is at hand;’ ‘Behold, I come quickly.’

  Such is a rapid sketch of the apostolic testimony to the speedy coming of the Lord. It would have been strange if, with such assurances and such exhortations, the apostolic churches had not lived in constant and eager expectation of the Parousia. That they did so we have the clearest evidence in the New Testament, and we can conceive the mighty influence which this faith and hope must have had upon Christian life and character.

  But, admitting, what cannot well be denied, that the apostles and early Christians did cherish these expectations, and that their belief was founded on the teaching of our Lord, the question arises, Were they not mistaken in their expectation? This is practically to ask, Were the apostles permitted to fall into error themselves, and to lead others into a like delusion, with respect to a matter of fact which they had abundant opportunities of knowing; which must frequently have been the subject of conversation and conference among themselves; which they never failed to keep before the attention of the churches, and about which they were all agreed?
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  22

  Some Apostles Still Alive Today?

  by sacolton in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  matthew 16:28.

  "i tell you with certainty, some people standing here will not experience death before they see the son of man coming in his kingdom.".

  mark 9:1. then he said to them, "i tell you with certainty, some people standing here will not experience death until they see the kingdom of god arrive with power.".

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  Ultimate Reality

  The other, more logical approach is to conclude that Christ's return/parousia was to take place within the generation of the people to whom he was speaking.

  Much of Chistendom and Jehovah's Witnesses in particular want to interpret these scriptures as applying now (or since 1914). Instead of assuming these things were written in a code, we can apply them to the people that Jesus spoke to and how they would have understood the words.

  In this case, saying that the these words would apply to the transfiguration, which took place a few days later, makes no sense. Why did Jesus make the point that some would still be alive (in other word's some would be dead) when they saw this event?

  Our mistake comes from the false chronology of the Watchtower. For example, if Revelation was written before 70CE and indeed as John said, the things in Revelation are to "shortly take place" then we can see why the Apostles had a sense of urgency. Because they were expecting a Great Tribulation in their lifetime that would not be repeated (or have a secondary larger fulfillment). And they would expect Christ to return and execute judgement on the harlot of apostate Jersulalem within their generation.
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  60

  Notice the major u-turn in the March study WT???

  by Amha·’aret in

  1. watchtower
  2. bible

  i still get copies of all the kms and mags - just for a giggle really.

  oh and to look out for noo light of course!.

  i was browsing thru the march 15 2009 yesterday and came across something that was noo to me.

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  Ultimate Reality

  In the 1940 edition of the Harp of God (pages 235 and 236--I have an original copy) the Society was still using the "old" chronology. It mentions 606 BCE, 1799 as the "time of the end", and 1874 as the start of Christ's second presence.
  
  So, where on earth do they arrive at 1925?
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  35

  DOES RAYMOND FRANZ 'CRISIS' BOOK TELL THE TRUTH?

  by whereami in

  1. jw
  2. friends

  this person continues to try to discredit ray franz.

  for a person that is not a jw he really does not give up.. .

  http://www.topix.com/forum/religion/jehovahs-witness/tsrv22ro5585t9asm/p8.

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  Ultimate Reality

  Having been raised "in the truth" I can say that Ray's book is far more honest (with sources cited) than Watchtower literature. Furthermore, I was aware of many situations that Ray's book made more clear. Reading what was happening on the other side made the confusion behind certain doctrines (such as alternative military service, and various flip-flops) show that foolish human reasoning (not God's spirit) was directing the Governing Body.